Difference between revisions of "User:Muzer/HB scheme changes"

Latest revision as of 13:31, 3 September 2020

Here is a list of my proposed changes to HostingBuddy default schemes. It is a first draft and there's many of these schemes that I haven't played in over a decade so go easy on me, but do leave your honest feedback! Please post your comments at the bottom.

TODO

Solicit opinions from all the important places

Read through that TUS thread KRD made on schemes to see if there are any prevailing opinions that I've missed

See if I can get stats from HB itself about what modifications people actually make to schemes?

Check schemes on sites such as TUS to see what they play (not ideal as league/competitive variants have often been different to casual variants which by its very nature HB will have more of)

Proposed changes

Intermediate

Right now, !host intermediate will host the intrinsic scheme. This makes a lot of logical sense, and it's the same for all the other intrinsic schemes. However, because this is Worms, nothing can be simple — the scheme people play seriously has naturally diverged (if only a little) from the intrinsic intermediate scheme, and so it would be desirable to have both. However, what should the "non-newbie intermediate" be called? Normal? Would that just be more confusing? Something like "League Intermediate" or "Competitive Intermediate"?

Questions

Should any of the race schemes have antisink?

Have I missed any options which would be both useful and would be more or less universally accepted in these schemes?

New schemes to add

Kaos Normal (with auto end of turn retreat)

RW Mole Shopper?

Drown Syndrome

Any other well-played RubberWorm schemes?

F-Keys schemes like F-Key Strike and Alt-F4, or is it too early to add these?

Trick Race (with or without LDET?)

Comments (please sign them by typing four tildes (~))

Hi, I think Trick Race is often hosted in AG, many roping schemes addicted players love it and it has several maps on WMDB, it has a proper category to search by the way. I think it should be added not due to the scheme too much, but because of the maps. Maybe LDET rubber setting might be added, since many people use it at least for trainning and the race itself is more focused on the tricks not much in speed. Of course Trick Race is not a game for beginners, but not only beginners use HB. --FoxHound (talk) 17:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good, no arguments from me! You're right, I've seen this scheme a lot, it just completely slipped my mind when I was writing the "new schemes" section. I agree that more expert schemes should be included in HB. My thing is more that if there are two variants of a scheme, one mostly played by beginners and one mostly played by experts, I would tend towards the beginners' scheme for HB, because HB by its very nature gets disproportionately more beginners than any other method of hosting. In terms of LDET, would you say most games are being played with it (at least, most 3.8 games)? Or is it still most common to go without it? I ultimately don't want to go with something that will be surprising to the majority. --Muzer (talk) 00:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I think if HB gives more attention to new players, Trick Race should use ldet feature, because it is annoying to end your turn because you are trying a hard trick, and need to wait all the other players because of a mistake in a game that is completely frequent to commit a mistake to execute a trick that needs a spike for example. This would make things easier and less frustrating to new players, however I don't know if TricK Race community would like this, I don't know if ldet is used in competitions, but in fun games, I think probably many people prefer with ldet. And I think most people will not use HB to play a competitive game. I may ask some people that plays it often what they think. --FoxHound (talk) 06:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

LDET for Trick Race is an absolute must, IMO. It's one of the most annoying and frustrating schemes for new players (next to Bungee Race and Super Sheep Race) -- anything that can make it more accessible and fair should be done. J0e (talk) 23:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, I'll take that into account. --Muzer (talk) 13:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

In my opinion, Hysteria should come automatically with Low Gravity, because it is the pattern not only for leagues or tournaments, but almost every single person plays with LG or prefers with it. It adds a lot to the gameplay and it is a very simple change to the scheme. Although the original scheme has its history and maybe preserving this in HB as it is doing already might be the preference specially for Run or for who are behind the game. --FoxHound (talk) 17:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I will speak to Run about this. My personal view is that for schemes that have one clearly defined author who is still active and contactable, their word should be final. Ultimately if there's really a huge amount of people playing with LG perhaps there should be a variant for simplicity (eg "LG Hysteria"), but I think it makes perfect sense not to "taint" the original author's creation with something they disagree with. --Muzer (talk) 00:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm on vacation but i'm just dropping by to say that it should include LG, no need for separate variations. It's sufficiently entrenched that i'm not sure my view should necessary count for much anyway, but maybe i'd kick up more a fuss if the change was more significant, like infinite tiny cows :P (still can't believe shoppa has zooks now, smdh) Run! (talk) 14:59, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I think Aerial is a very nice scheme that people would like to see in Hosting Buddy too. --FoxHound (talk) 17:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

It's already there! You can do !host aerial right now! --Muzer (talk) 00:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Ops, sorry for that, I really did not see. --FoxHound (talk) 06:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Even though Drown Syndrome is not that famous yet, it is a "prehistoric" RubberWorm scheme which I think people will love, because everybody I show this scheme like it. I have no idea how Kaos Normal (even being a scheme that the luck is very present and is seen in competitive play) got so popular and Drown Syndrome don't. To be honest I think some schemes in Scheme ideas such as Neocombat (where girder glitch is strong and part of the strategy) and Plop War Rubber Version (which has the unique Mole Jumps) are very similar to Drown Syndrome in some aspects, but with some differences, and maybe some features are more up to date (even though they did not receive changes for 3.8 release). I'm personaly a big fan of Neocombat and Plop War Rubber Version (even though this one has altered weapon powers) but both schemes nobody knows. I know HB should add mainly famous schemes, specially the ones on this wiki, but I think there are some very beautiful scheme creations around TUS, WMDB and also on Scheme ideas that people don't know and many beginners or even experienced players using Hosting Buddy might like it. I've seen some people hosting Tube Trap (using HB if I'm not mistaken) with 6 players and that surprised me. Some schemes like Beat The Sheep have beautiful concepts, but are more like a challenge game, not something that people would play online. I think many ideas on WMDB for example people don't try because they are lazy to download a map, download the scheme of the map, read the scheme rules/summary/sets (number of worms for example) and learn how to play. HB is unique because it can create a whole game concept with almost everything ready to play. I want to state that I don't want to promote schemes from my self or from my friends. I just want to see people playing new stuff in WormNET not only Shopper or league schemes, specially now with the 3.8 universe of features. I also would like to say that TUS has at least two Scheme-creation communities, and I think both are "dead". --FoxHound (talk) 00:08, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

It's nice to be able to promote schemes that are clearly "up and coming" with HB. I can only speak from personal experience, but in the communities I frequent I've seen a lot of F-Key schemes being played, and Drown Syndrome I've seen a few times as well. Ultimately I think even if there are small communities actively playing a scheme, they are worthy of inclusion. My main issue with including too many schemes which nobody at all plays is that it makes big clean-up/maintenance tasks like this one much harder for relatively little benefit — sure, some of those schemes might take off, but a lot of them won't, and you don't really know which ones will. I think HB has the balance about right now in terms of the sorts of schemes it has historically included, but obviously this has become a little out of date with a lot of schemes missing which by these criteria should really have been included. It'll be nice to try and redress that, but I don't want to go overboard or next time a bunch of new options are added to WA the task to update the old schemes where appropriate will be even bigger. --Muzer (talk) 00:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I understand. The maintenance is very important, so definitely few schemes should be added. About adding RubberWorm schemes, I think RubberWorm Mole Shopper is one of the most played rubber schemes right now, WMDB has a lot of Rubber Mole Shopper maps already. I don't know which scheme would be the best though, maybe the one of this wiki. There is also many Blackhole BnG maps on WMDB, but I really don't see people playing much. Power Prodder has a category there too, but is very rare to see someone playing that scheme. I think since you mentioned HB for newcomers, it definitely needs something like a "Rubber Version for The Full Wormage" a scheme only for mass destruction, for fun only. Maybe something like Pac-Man's WeaponXpress or Nanageddon will do it, I definitely vote for it. And I saw that you are considering to turn boom race into a Rubber Boom Race, I don't know what competitive players would say, but I think it is a good idea. However, even though I said I don't want to promote my schemes, I just want to say that there is already 14 Boom for Weapons maps on WMDB made by 5 different people (I only created the first map). I think BfW explores even more boom race technics, since it encourages you to use different weapons, not only bazooka, pigeon and shotgun (which are used all the time). I think many boom race players will tend to play it in 3.8. I'm just showing numbers. If BfW do one day appear in HB, there is a problem only to choose the right scheme, since usually each map has a proper scheme (but most of them use the same physics, usually only the weapons change). I would probably put all weapons possible to solve that or simply choose a scheme from sbs, since he is the responsible for the scheme acceptance and most of the maps. He is author of many Rubber maps and probably one of the best map makers of now a days, he also did a map just for Drown Syndrome. --FoxHound (talk) 06:54, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

On the topic of Drown Syndrome i don't know how you might want to handle worm numbers; i originally proposed each player has 2 teams of 6 (because at the time, i was determined to make everything a 6 in that scheme) but since HB can't enforce 2 teams per player, and people will most likely play it with one team if they've not looked it up on the wiki, you might want to default it to be 8. The scheme works pretty well along the lines of "as many worms as possible" anyway Run! (talk) 15:07, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree that Boom Race would be best made into a Rubberworm scheme (LDET, SDET). Nobody really plays it, but I think they would if it were more fun (ie. Rubberworm). J0e (talk) 23:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, I think that's more or less settled, I don't think anyone I've suggested this to has strongly objected. --Muzer (talk) 13:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Player Slayer from the TUS community Boomrace Masters sent me exactly this message: "Being a conservator I prefer Boom Race in original state. No rubber features". Something I noticed is that he does not really gives a good reason for this decision. The only reason is that he is a "conservator".

EDIT: Player Nous from the same TUS Community (Boomrace Masters) is favorable to turn Boom Race into Rubber Boom Race, since it may increase the scheme popularity, because it is more dynamic.--FoxHound (talk) 21:54, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I think that having the banana for retreat at Big Rope Races inserts a bit of skill in order to throw it at the last possible moment to get the most of a turn. If looking from a casual perspective, it can also make new players learn how to shoot from the rope, and how to coordinate in order to do it at the best possible moment and have some extra seconds. At this, antisink could've seen as a welcome feature as well, as non-expert players won't have the risk of plopping and ending their game. --OScarDiAnno (talk) 18:46, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Hmm. Whether or not you personally think it's a good idea I think ultimately for a thing like that you have to look at how people actually play it in practice. From what I hear from asking around it seems like the majority of Big RRs are played without the banana, so I think on balance this is probably the correct thing to do. I'll leave it at the correct power level etc. so that it's easy to add the ammo (and tweak the turn time) if a host wishes to do so. --Muzer (talk) 13:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I personally don't like too much the banana in RR beacuse it causes even more advantage who do not fall from the rope too much. However I like OScarDiAnno's point of view, because the banana really creates a tense moment at the end of the turn time, and it creates another style of playing Big RR. So, what about using a scheme that has the banana with 21 power, but with unlimited delay? This way, the scheme will make it clear that HB considers this variant too and people could activate the banana removing the delay only. Maybe HB could send an automatic message suggesting the command to activate the banana removing the delay. Maybe more schemes could receive such messages. For example, in Intermediate, HB could suggest the command to the Intermediate league version scheme. The same thing for t17 scheme versions, discussed here too. I wonder if Hosting Buddy should teach people the game rules or a summary of it. On one side, it would be interesting to beginners understand why they are kicked so much and learn how to play new schemes. On the other side it would cause people to copy and paste the rules to do not be kicked without knowing the rules in fact and causing a bad game experience for the host and the other players. Newbies will never imagine that Abnormal is a suicidal game, they will play it as an Intermediate variation. Maybe instead of HB saying the rules, it should send a link to a WKB article. Ah, and about antisink for races, I think all races should receive antisink, if someone wants to play feeling the risk of plopping, they should disactivate it. --FoxHound (talk) 17:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yep, I have actually considered something like this. However, I don't want to cause feature creep and delay this HB update indefinitely; I think here ultimately I have to draw a line lest I make perfect be the enemy of the good. One big problem with telling people rules etc. is that HB isn't currently localisable and so this will only work for fluent English speakers. --Muzer (talk) 19:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Warmer: Include LDET and low gravity? J0e (talk) 23:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Not sure how many people still play warmers, but I imagine this change would be very controversial. As for low gravity, I don't see why not; a lot of warmers I've seen played have "full wormage" type schemes anyway so no reason not to include LG. --Muzer (talk) 13:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, LG in Warmer is fine, as long as the scheme doesn't end up being used for something like a roping style contest (not that idiotic an idea, considering HB games stay up even if the host, so one of the judges, disconnects) where one player out of up to six in a lobby can ruin the game and delay the entire tournament by enabling LG without realising the tournament in question isn't meant to be played using it. LDET on the other hand, I feel, has no place in any of the more serious/competitive roping schemes, and Warmer least of all. It's the obvious choice for teaching roping to newer players, and you risk ruining them forever by imparting on them that messing up comes with fewer negative consequences than it actually does, out there in the real world. Apart from failure being the best teacher, what's the reaction of a newly-decent roper taught on linear WxW-style maps with training wheels attached going to be when it's time to venture into the world of playing Warmer properly, on non-linear maps and with falls actually resulting in falls? As it happens, we know exactly what happens, they never make the transition and invent a bubble for themselves in which real Warmer (or TTRR or Roper or even real Trick Race, if there is such a thing) doesn't exist so that they can continue living in fantasy land and I have to read comments here saying nobody plays Warmer anymore. Yeah, no wonder. :D KoreanRedDragon (talk) 19:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

About LDET, I know that it is not the same thing, but I heard that some people think that the parachute shouldn't be used in roping schemes. It's an ok idea for me and makes sense thinking on the "real world", it can also be considered a "training wheel", however most people prefer playing with it. The same thing goes for antisink, some people will say it removes the tension in some maps or the "noob-eliminator" concept at the start of some maps. However the plops may ruin a game, because people do commit mistakes, specially beginners. Antisink also allows maps with surf/skimming areas more playable and fun to play, sometimes it also helps teleporting the worm back to where it was if you miss a far island or a hard surf/skimming part. In Check Point (Rope) Race antisink is very useful to go back too. For me it is important the fun factor. Also, what if LDET or even rubber/bounce feature become the "real world" in a scheme? What if the tool create a new gameplay style with games focused in time/speed mostly and not much in being careful? What if Warmer becomes really popular in the future due to a new fun tool enhancing the performance/gameplay? What if new hard tricks appear using rubber/bouce feature or different gravities? I think the same for weapon powers, most people prefer playing with the standard powers, but what if schemes exploring different weapon powers become popular with another type of strategy/gameplay? Trick Race is one of the few schemes I think LDET would be better for now, at least in HB thinking on beginners. Some tricks are very easy to loose the relatively long turns of Trick Race on the first attempt (for many turns in a row), it can be really annoying sometimes without LDET (note that the trick still will not be considered valid if someone fall, LDET is only for do not end your turn). The few people I talked who actively play Trick Race said that they agree with LDET in HB, including very good Trick players. I'm waiting for more opinions, however. I think it's ok to be "tr00" or "radical" at some aspects of the game or its "roots", some people dislike non-conventional games and don't even play games with rope (and I understand them). Some Worms 2 people (that are now in WA) only like the Worms 2 rope too (they use the RubberWorm feature for this). I just think that when this radical posture creates a toxic ambience or bullying to people using training tools or with different views of the evolution of the game it is not healthy to the community. It is like when a "tr00" headbanger says that indie rock "is not music", it may create a preconception, a phobia of a group. Usually these conflicts exist between people from different generations (like the "OK Boomer" meme). For some people of 70's Rock and Roll, Emocore "is not music". In Brazil some music genres like Sertanejo or Funk Carioca (completely different from USA's Funk, but with black people culture behind it too) have a lot of judgement from many Rock lovers. I do understand the criticisms of these people, but I think people should respect new possibilities, different opinions as we are doing on this democratic ambience with good conversations and dialogue. --FoxHound (talk) 05:08, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The reason I don't think your music genre comparisons translate well to our roping scheme situation is that Warmer, played "properly" (which is a term I use with some humour, I really don't intend any toxicity), isn't 70s rock with a huge listener base scoffing at emo. It's obscure renaissance and baroque era classical music that very few people today even know existed, and used to be one of the pillars holding society together, a means through which culture was passed on and indeed evolved, using it as the foundation for many great advancements in art and sometimes science. More than that, it could still fulfill that role today, but the few remaining people who want to keep knowledge of its existence and traditions alive are being told to just let it die, that it not being popular currently is a sign that it can never be relevant again, so we should do everything in our power to specifically not teach kids about it anymore. If I know for a fact how great a loss it would be to let an art form die out in the noise of a thousand different popular genres, it's going to be really difficult to convince me it's us being the toxic oppressors, holding wonderful progress back, when the numbers have been stacked against us for a decade or more by now. But yeah anyway, I don't honestly care what direction Trick Race is taken in, which is why I'm staying out of that particualr debate; still, I worry that what gets decided on there will sooner or later be used as precedent for what should happen to RR and Warmer, and by then it'll be too late to speak up. KoreanRedDragon (talk) 14:57, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I took the discussion too far away comparing to music, I just wanted to expand the talk a bit. I agree that people should know more about the past, the history of things and respect what older/experienced people has to say even if the subject is e-sports, games (many progress was done due to the efforts of the elders). I actually liked much more Warmer, after reading its article here in WKB, I think many people don't have much interest to learn how things are what they are today, and that's sad. Education is a must anywhere. I agree that people should preserve some elements of the game history, I just wanted to warn that sometimes people go too extremist and too stuck in the past, but things evolve, like progressive rock revived classical music in a different way, black metal bands are fusing the genre with shoegaze (Blackgaze), Bossa Nova is considered a combination of Samba with Jazz the same way Mole Fort is a combination of Fort plus Mole Shopper. --FoxHound (talk) 19:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Player Shtaket from the TUS Trick Race community said to me via message that he is against LDET or any other Rubber setting in HB's Trick Race possible scheme. The player also said that if newbies want, they should put the proper command for LDET and the scheme should have around 40 seconds of turn time, with unlimited ropes and parachute. EDIT: Player H01yC74p, from the same Trick Race community said exactly this to me: "Hi, trick race shemes must be without rubberworm. No rubber pls."--FoxHound (talk) 21:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Team17: Keep rope knocking enabled? For bungee knocking, and if someone wants to waste their rope, the game shouldn't stop them, IMO. Longbow power - I thought it was supposed to be 50 per shot - currently does 30. J0e (talk) 23:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Since it's traditionally been played with rope knocking disallowed, I'd lean towards disabling it by default. But maybe I should just leave it up to the channel scheme; that way if people host in #PT they get it without rope knocking, and if they host in #AG they get rope knocking. As for longbow power this is one of those topics of debate in the TUS thread. It seems to me like some people want 50 and some people want 15 so generally people have settled on a compromise of 30. So the current scheme is in-keeping with that. But in general Team17 is one of those schemes where everyone plays their own variant anyway, and no amount of changing the HB scheme is going to alter what people actually play themselves — so I think the two priorities here should be to make it a cohesive scheme that makes sense and is fun to play in and of itself, and as a secondary goal to get it close to a happy medium between what different people play, in order to make it less surprising for people who aren't used to the HB variant, and to allow hosts to change it to their own preferred variant more easily with the minimum of ! commands. --Muzer (talk) 13:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Supersheeper

I did up the Supersheeper article and realised I have no idea where the scheme (I uploaded the file in 2008, apparently) actually came from originally. Can anyone verify it? For all I know, I just made it up at the time. I dare say it probably ought to be looked at and worked into a suitably fun/skilful/strategic scheme, and then HB updated to reflect whatever changes are made. Run! (talk) 19:48, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Quickdraw

Now Schemes page has an article for Quickdraw, I think newbies and pros will love this scheme. It won a scheme contest. It deserves to be in Hosting Buddy selection of schemes. --FoxHound (talk) 13:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)